Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Well, folks, today you get to catch up with Priscilla Donut Moritz and hear what she's learned about making agreements and how she uses squares to keep herself straight. You
Speaker 1 00:00:09 Also get a chance to learn about conscious language and how our next organizational leader intends to experiment with it.
Speaker 2 00:00:16 Welcome to the Epic Agility Leadership podcast series where you embark on a journey of business agility and leadership evolution with your hosts Ron Labio and Lisa Atkins.
Speaker 1 00:00:28 During our last podcast, we spoke with Priscilla Dun Moritz, and she crafted an experiment from the Lead together book, specifically Chapter 10, agreements, make accountabilities and commitments That Work. Priscilla joins us again so we can learn more about what happened in her experiment. Hello everyone. We are here with Priscilla Dunit Moritz. She leads the Agile transformation at Phillips, and she lives in the Netherlands. Welcome back, Priscilla.
Speaker 3 00:00:54 Hi, Lisa. Hi, Ron. It's great to be back again and yeah, thanks for having me. It was a couple of weeks ago when we started the experiment, and there we are already. Time went by so fast.
Speaker 0 00:01:11 No, excellent. Good
Speaker 3 00:01:11 To to be back.
Speaker 0 00:01:13 Yes, welcome. Alright. All right. So Priscilla, you've had an opportunity to try out team agreements with your group, but if you could do us a favor, since it's been a bit of time, remind us about what your experiment was and how you, you tried it out in your group.
Speaker 3 00:01:34 Yeah, of course. So by the time I explained, we're working in a multidisciplinary team. It's called the Agile 360 Team. The 360 is for a reason as we want to really transform the organization, the Phillips organization, towards an agile organization inspired by external and internal great examples, et cetera. So we built a team. It's evolves over time, so it's, it's changing also quite a lot. Yeah. In general, on average, we work with, with 10 people, only two people report formally to me. So it is really a team of like-minded people, enthusiasts without hierarchy. Right. But that also brings some challenges with it. So I tried to shift from nice to respectful and yeah. Also put things on the table.
Speaker 1 00:02:36 Yeah, I remember that your experiment was to first start with yourself, which I think is so brave. Yeah. So remind us, like, just in a sentence, like what was the experiment you were running with yourself?
Speaker 3 00:02:46 Yeah, so then I caught up in that example from the book lead together, and I committed to hold a personal scorecard and to really list every commitment I made up to a small level of detail. And also the date when I finished that commitment. Right. Or accomplish that commitment. And you already wanna know how it went?
Speaker 1 00:03:16 Yes. We're done to know how it went. Are you kidding?
Speaker 4 00:03:21 How did it go?
Speaker 3 00:03:24 Yeah. Well, honestly, it was super interesting. I learned so much. I started the Personal Commitments scorecard. I set it up in, in my role, it was kind of a personal backlog, right? Very visual. I like visuals, I like my role. So I thought, okay, I have this. But then I started and all of a sudden I be, I became so conscious of how much comes to you on the day, every second, every minute, every hour. Once you type, it takes quite a while to, to really have a list of commitment, the details, et cetera, et cetera. And my mind goes quite fast. And a lot is also on our minds and on my mind. So it was quite a challenge, to be honest. I did keep the, the backlog, but not for weeks because there were days really that I realized maybe I do too much on a day. There was also an insight I take up so much in such a quick pace and also want to be there, block t block, prioritize, engage, help the team, lead the team, that this was a very heavy loaded admin task, so to say.
Speaker 1 00:04:47 So that's, that's good. Let's take that for just a moment. So, so in the small amount of time that you did do it, did you find out that you're com you are completing your agreements? Or did you find out that Wow. No, I'm just, I'm not, it's moving too fast.
Speaker 3 00:05:04 Yeah. So most of the agreements, yes. I, I lived up to some agreements were still on the backlog because that was another insight. I realized that I'm going too fast. I have such a strong vision about this transformation, and it's so clear in my mind how I wanna do it, that sometimes I feel that I'm a bit too far in my thinking. Like, okay, I have to engage with that person and see if she can, I don't know, interview a leader, talk to the other person, and, but these people first have to be onboarded right in, in the whole process. So I also realized that things on my backlog weren't yet on others. I had to onboard them first before I could ask it anyways, right. So yeah, there were, there were also insights that sometimes it's not only what you think, no, it's really bringing your whole team along.
Speaker 3 00:06:15 What I did though is, okay, the backlog in my role, I thought it would help. It didn't really, but I started writing down stuff on paper notes, commitments. So I always write, when I talk on the, on the phone, what I did is every Friday I had a personal check-in a review meeting with myself. I took quite some time, an hour, one and a half to look back at the notes. And every time I had an action or a commitment, then I had a big square around it so I could easily flip back. Let's see. Oh yeah, right. Eh, and, and, and, and could fill the hole, so to say on Friday. That was really helpful. But it was also an honest conversation with yourself. What went well, what didn't go so well, and what can I improve, eh, next, next week? And, and this really worked for me. So it was kind of the same of a personal scorecard, but not that detailed in one place. It was more in my notebook and every time I had an action or a commitment or an agreement, it was squared. So I could easily find it, find it back in the book.
Speaker 1 00:07:31 I think that maybe you're giving the people who are listening to this a pro tip, which is basically don't create an admin task for yourself. You know, if you're going to do this, do it in line with however your day flows, and for you, your day flows and your notebook where you're constantly taking notes and everything, and you just drawing a square around it. It's the, by the way, that was the backlog, Priscilla, you actually did it. You just, you just, you just threw away one tool that didn't work as well as you thought it was going to
Speaker 3 00:08:01 Brought it into
Speaker 1 00:08:03 Organic for the way you work.
Speaker 3 00:08:05 No, so, so it also helped me to stop the, the running train, right. See if Yeah. Sometimes step back and see if we were still running in the right direction. Yeah. Because so much happened in a week. It was like, like this amount of paper I wrote in a week. I was like, oh my God, A lot has happened. Yeah. Was this only a week ago? It feels like an HO when I, yeah, and sometimes you tend to react instead of response, right? Instead of response. I mean, yeah, makes sense. So, so, so really only reacting, reacting, reacting. And then there's no choice between the stimulus and the reaction, right? It's, it's always, you just do it like you do it. And if you are far more conscious and sometimes look back, you also can choose your response much better and, and, and, and become much more aware of Yeah. Actually the choices you make.
Speaker 0 00:09:09 Exactly. So, and I'm curious, like you had so much on your plate, I just wondered, did you end up having an opportunity of taking team agreements to your team? Is there any chance that you had that or not?
Speaker 3 00:09:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And right after our first podcast, I shared the experiment with the team as well. And I really loved it because they also recognize, right, we're all super dedicated, super enthusiastic. So we don't, trust is not not an issue actually. If someone is busy, someone is busy, okay. And if someone says no, that's for a reason. But we also talked about, hey, you, you mentioned these three type of agreements, the governance agreements, the social agreements and operating agreements. And I think the governance agreements are, for us quite straightforward. We're an agile team. We're agile experts. We have our sprint cadence, we stick to it, we do our retros reviews, plannings, daily scrums, everything. And the social agreements, how people behave and work together was also not really challenging because we do weekly, no bi-weekly retros. But the operating agreements were challenging though, because there, the day-to-day whirlwind comes right in a sprint planning you're together, you set a sprint goal, super clear, you're on the same page.
Speaker 3 00:10:35 If, if not, you have the discussion, but then you're off, right? And then that whole operating work starts, and then new info comes, people pull, pull, pull your here, there, and everywhere. And there the challenge starts actually. So that's also something we agreed, like how can we stay at the same pace? Some, some people are available for a hundred percent, some are for 40%, some are for 60 or 70% all dedicated. But yeah, how can we help each other or hold each other accountable? Yeah. So those are the conversations we had. And that also made the team conscious of where we struggle. It's not in the events themselves, it's not in sticking to eh, or being ambitious or whatever. No, it's, it's really in, in the day-to-day operations. Then actually it, it can slip. So how to keep focused on the goal instead of being absorbed by the whirlwind of today. Yeah, exactly. One other thing I definitely take, take further, so to say is treat every agreement as a prototype, especially in times of change that takes the air so much out the pressure, it takes the pressure out. It's not like, okay, and now we commit to this big elephant or that. No, just start. See how it goes. Pull that along the way. Right.
Speaker 0 00:12:13 Well Priscilla, thank you so much for your time. There's so much rich content and learning and experience that you just offered us in such a short period of time about your experiment with team agreements. And I want to thank you so much. Well, we want to thank you so much for taking the time, but also taking the opportunity to extend your courage as a leader to try this, experiment out yourself and see what would come of it. So I really thank you so much for all of that. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 00:12:42 Great. Ron, thank you so much. And again, it was a huge pleasure being with you and learned a lot from your insights. I, during my experiment, I felt a lot flat on my nose, right? But then every time it gave another insight. So it was super fun to do. And thanks so much again for having me here.
Speaker 1 00:13:08 Okay, everyone, it's now time for the takeaway. Ron, what's your main takeaway?
Speaker 0 00:13:14 One of the things that I really liked that really Priscilla came outta the gateway with was the fact that she actually tried this experiment on herself first. And what's really important about this message is that leaders are ones that need to go first. We need to demonstrate the behaviors that we want our, our teams to, to exude by just simply being the role that we, or the being the shift that we wanna see. So with leader going first, such as Priscilla did it, her vulnerability and what she did in front of them really invited them to come along with the ride with her. And that created a very interesting open culture that allowed them to connect the dots quickly and get more confidence that she'll be supportive given the fact that she tried herself. And what about you? What was your takeaway?
Speaker 1 00:13:59 So mine is about the nature of experimentation for leaders. What I really appreciated about Priscilla is that she tried one format of this experiment that didn't really work. And initially she's like, oh, the experiment failed, but then she realized that she was actually doing it, but in a way that was more natural for her. So my big takeaway is treat experiments as experiments, not as tests, that you only get one chance at Async.
Speaker 0 00:14:32 Well, what I'm very excited about talking about today in our podcast is about conscious language and knowing that words matter. And as leaders, it's very important for us to recognize that the influence that we have on our team is quite profound. Our behaviors, our actions, what we condone, what we don't condone, really sends key messages to our teams about what's acceptable and what's unacceptable and how they need to work within the matters that, that we provide for them. But one of the things that's really important about us to recognize is how language or the words that we choose have just such as a powerful influence on them. And in many cases, we don't bother to check the definitions with ourselves or with our colleagues, but we just simply use them out of habit. Then what unfortunately comes outta this is that the language that we use can exclude people unintentionally, or it might even cause un unrecognizable emotional triggers or negativity that really shuts down people and their, their contributions, putting them maybe in a, a defensive mode instead of in, in an innovative and creative and engaging mode.
Speaker 1 00:15:44 And, you know, language can become conscious, you know, as leaders, we can become more and more conscious about everything we do, including the language we use, including the exclusionary words we use, but also including the new words we use. They are all of these new words from these new ways of working, and the idea is to introduce them mindfully and to make sure there's alignment on meaning before we just launch into using them. So these were just a couple of the concepts from the chapter in the lead together book, chapter four called Conscious Language. Know that Words Matter. And now we're about to hear a whole lot more from a real organizational leader who took in the ideas from this chapter, and you're gonna hear what he wants to do with them.
Speaker 0 00:16:31 Well, let's meet him now. Okay. So folks on that, I'd like to take the opportunity of inviting Eric Forsyth to our podcast and see what new way he wants to apply to his workplace. Welcome, Eric. Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 6 00:16:47 Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 0 00:16:49 Yeah, very welcome. Okay, so to get started, we're just curious, Eric, who are you? What do you do?
Speaker 6 00:16:58 Yeah, Eric Corsey. So I'm the a VP of IT ops at Interact Corporation. It's a company here in Canada that, that runs national payment systems for Canadians. Everything from mobile tap to private ATM network. And it's, it's a portfolio that I'm quite proud of and, and I work with great people. So yeah, I'm excited to, to talk about ultimately how we're gonna apply leadership fundamentals to make it an even better workplace for us here at Iraq.
Speaker 0 00:17:24 Well, thank you Eric for that. I really appreciate it. So you picked an opportunity of trying out conscious language in your workplace, but before we get to that and what your experiment is gonna be, could you do us a favor and give us an idea of what parts of that chapter really resonated with you and why?
Speaker 6 00:17:42 Yeah, for sure. So, you know, if I, if I rewind about 12 years, I wrote a paper in a leadership course, it was a master's level course at Carlton University, and it was, it was about leadership and security, which is essentially my field, right? And I didn't, I didn't know what to expect. You know, there, there was a significant amount of, of theory on different types of leadership styles, what works, what doesn't. And, and I, I actually chose to do my, my term paper on nonverbal communication. And what I learned from that was, you know, how I present myself in a meeting, the how I move, how I, how the facial expressions I make, how I move my body, how I may react to something that may be said is, is equally important to what is being said. And so when I read this chapter, I'm like, oh yeah, like, you know, it's not just about body language then nonverbal communication, but it really truly is about the things that we say.
Speaker 6 00:18:31 And what I learned in that chapter was it can be interpreted so differently, and it's something of a bit epiphany for me to go and, and realize words that I've been using for so long, leading people maybe interpreted negatively inside, you know, certain, certain demographics of my audience, right? So, so, you know, that then right away I'm like, well, that's important, especially for me because it's day, you know, this is something that I go on sometimes 15 meetings a day, and if I'm not using the right language, then I'm portraying the wrong message. You know, when I looked at words like trust, I'm like, you know, I use that all the time. You know, it's about trust, it's about trust. And I, I never really expanded or un unpacked what that meant. It was just, it was a word I just assumed. Everybody understood. Well, and, and the meaning and the intent behind it was, was, was clear.
Speaker 6 00:19:13 And I realized that chapter, no, it's not, it's not clear. It could be, it could be negative to some people. He doesn't trust me, you know, and especially when you're talking about a hierarchal organization, which is another thing I'll touch on that resonated with me. You know, if we're gonna structure ourselves in such a way that, that it's lead from the top, right? Or, or, and we might not even know it, that we're enabling an authoritarian type of leadership style. When you use the word trust, it's all of a sudden, oh, oh, you know, leadership doesn't trust me. And so that was, that was a big deal to me when I was reading that chapter because I realized right away, like, I gotta, I gotta do a bit more self explore, exploration and discovery on the language I used it, it dove right into, you know, how we structure titles in an organization.
Speaker 6 00:19:52 And I'm like, oh, you know, because my leadership style I'd like, I like to believe is, is lead from behind. Meaning I, I just wanna enable the people around me to have the, the proper environment for success. And then I, and then I said, okay, well I'm not doing that if I'm, you know, if I'm propagating a hierarchical, authoritative type of structure, whether it's titles or, or language or whatnot. So, and then, and then I realized that, that there was buzzwords in there that some I've used and some I haven't, I'd say the majority I haven't used. When you align on the definitions of those words, I could see how they could be wickedly beneficial for, you know, for example, a meeting you might have, you get out of it, you don't necessarily get what you need from a harvesting perspective, and then you have the meeting again, and then, and then you end up in this unproductive loop of having the same meeting six or seven times. So, you know, when I was reading and I was just kind of zeroing in some of these terms, they, they did really resonate with me in terms of how can I get better productivity? How can I get stronger, buy-in? And most importantly, how can, you know, how can we affect language to bring, bring a more positive outlook to leadership as it relates to the people we lead?
Speaker 0 00:20:54 Excellent. Thank you. Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 00:20:57 I just love it.
Speaker 0 00:20:58 Yeah, excellent. And, and I, I think Lisa and I echo very much of our feelings of the same thing. I think you, yes. So thank you for that. Now what we wanna do now is we want to kind of get behind your glasses and we want to see what you see.
Speaker 6 00:21:13 Oh, no. And,
Speaker 0 00:21:14 And, and if you could do us a favor and just take us into your workspace and your workplace and those that you lead and the circumstances and the situations that you're in, so that we can get a good idea of the experiment that you wanna run and how you apply conscious language.
Speaker 6 00:21:33 That's, that's okay. So let's start with, with a bit of the responsibility. So, you know, as, as we know in Canada, NAR Iraq is, is a national payment system or has multiple national payment systems, and ultimately I'm responsible with my team to, you know, to be availability and integrity and confidentiality of those systems. So, so, and that, and that, you know, the, the depth and breadth of that can be everything from your reactive team that ultimately has to be responsible for, for incident triage. It could also be your, your, your proactive team that's trying to take a look at predictive analytics as it relates to risk in the organization and, and technology and operations. Right.
Speaker 0 00:22:10 Thank
Speaker 1 00:22:10 You. Excellent. I love it. I love it. So what are you thinking? So there's a lot of big ideas sort of like, ah, ah, ah, that happened for you as you were reading that chapter. So why are you starting to think about as you start to narrow down into like what you might experiment with, like what's a thing you might try?
Speaker 6 00:22:28 Yeah, that's a good question. So, you know, one of the first things is alignment on the language. Because, because I can go into a meeting tomorrow and start using all the p buzzword, right? But everyone's gonna be like, what's he talking about? He's gone, he's gone off off the edge. I, I think the first thing is, you know, what I'd like to do is, is, is socialize these words and these, the context of these words with my teams and see if we can get alignment on how it could ultimately help us from a productivity perspective and most, most importantly across functional engagement perspective. And you know, so when I was looking at, you know, I mentioned it earlier about harvest, but you know, things like show up, you know, that's language for my, for, for my teams is just, you know, how how do we, how do we define show up?
Speaker 6 00:23:08 I noticed that, you know, that the legacy term is like, you know, you gotta be there. You, you gotta, you know, you gotta take the lead. And it's not necessarily the way it's, it's intended to be, to be interpreted or it can be interpreted differently. So what would I like to do? I'd like, I'd like to maybe choose two or three of those words, those daily buzzwords and, and trying to integrate them into my day-to-day language as it relates to technology meetings or operational meetings or process meetings. And let's see, let's see if we can get, if we can, if, if we can get to a place where we have buy-in from my team, and we start kind of seeing the same, the same narrative as it relates to some of these, some of these definitions, I think we can demonstrate very quickly the benefit of that, right? It's important to me, it, it's important to me and it's also important for me to recognize after reading this chapter that I may, I may not be doing everything, everything I can to facilitate that outcome.
Speaker 0 00:23:56 What do you think the outcome might look like at the end of two weeks? What are your anticipations?
Speaker 6 00:24:01 Yeah, that's a good question. I think that what, what I'm gonna find is, and, and, and two weeks is a relatively short, short period, you know, but if we, if we, if we got to a place where, you know, I guess 14 meetings a day, 14 opportunities to, to, to inject this experiment, we'll probably get us the outcomes we're looking for. But I would say I would expect a, a, you know, a bit more positive culture, meaning those that are introverted, you know, may being part of those conversations, I, I think does that, that's an easy measurement, right? Those that never really speak up all of a sudden are speaking up and providing, providing their input would be, would be a solid way to measure success on this front. Another one would be just productivity of meetings. How many, how many of the same meetings am I having this week for the same topic?
Speaker 6 00:24:44 Did I harvest that meeting properly? Probably not. We're just so busy. Yeah, you go, you go next meeting, next meeting, and it's like, what was the meeting that we had an hour and a half ago? But nobody actually, you know, pulled all the work that we had in that meeting together in such a way that it could be useful, right? So that's another measurement I think that would, that would really help me and, and, and provide this experiment. Some, some measure of success. I think those, those two things alone in a two week period, that would blow my mind. I mean, if we could get to a place where we're, we're actually demonstrating those two particular measurements of success in a two week period, man, I mean, that, that'd be huge. That would be huge for me and the team, most importantly.
Speaker 1 00:25:23 Yeah, that would be huge for everyone. So here's, here's what I find fascinating about how you constructed this. So what you wanna do is make sure that people who are more shy have the space to tell their opinion, toss the ball around, you know, have, have themselves be heard when they wanna be heard. That's right. What's interesting to me about that is that the tealy buzzwords that are in this chapter are all about creating a level playing field for people to do that check in, check out two ways to get people's voice in the room right away, that's right at the beginning. And the end harvest ways to get people to bring forth what they just learned from some activity or some conversation you just had, hold space, the ability for you as the leader to sit still, essentially. Yeah. Like sit, still, create, create a little bit of invitation, but also tension, you know, that people feel, okay, yeah, maybe I should come forward with that thing. I've been sitting on the fence of saying, you know, right. So it's, it's amazing that it, you sort, it's sort of like any of those words you wanna choose to bring in are all going to potentially benefit the core thing you're going for.
Speaker 6 00:26:43 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:26:44 So,
Speaker 0 00:26:45 Cool. That's good. And, and as you come up with your list, I, I invite you to explore other words that, that aren't necessarily in the chapter, but ones that you talk to your desire for inclusiveness. Because as leaders, we really are the ones who cultivate the culture because we're the ones who have the power. They're the ones that they, they they follow. And so it's your nuance that actually really does influence the culture. So as you're picking words, the to avoid and words to introduce, but ex explore that whole gamut of it, because it's, if you're a leader who walks in a room and you start using a lot of the words that, even words that we, that we consider common, like, well, what's the problem? What's the issue? Always, never. Like you're using very strong words. It, it gives people negative feelings and they get a bit fearful and, and, and especially of the unknown, and they're scared.
Speaker 0 00:27:39 However, to your saying to to your point, it's not that you want to use new words because you're not authentic. It's, it's, it's acknowledging the fact that authentically you want to create a culture like that, but inadvertently you're borrowing all the words that you grew up on in your space and your it environment experience, and you're just porting them over to the new experience, not realizing that they're hammers and not feathers. So it's, you know, it's, you start to realize, oh, geez, I, I am doing that. So instead of, instead of talking about problems and issues, if you just walk in and start asking about solutions, and if you use opportunities, yeah, opportunities. And even using the word try starts to give people a bit more of an experience of, of, of excitement and inspiration as opposed to words that otherwise could really cause a lot of anxiety about whether they're gonna actually achieve it or not. So yeah, so explore those words about the, the, I would say the feeling that people might get when you use those words. So yeah, that'd be fantastic. Excellent.
Speaker 6 00:28:40 That, that's a really great point. You know, I, I, this, this week I used words like definitive and a hundred percent, you know, a hundred percent confidence. And I'm sure you know now in retrospect, that clams people up, right? Yeah. Kenny is like, what's your probability of confidence? Like, how do you feel about that? How are you feeling about this change that's coming up this weekend? You know, I, I think what I've done, what I've done in inadvertently is shut down dialogue and conversation as a result of using definitive language, because it's, it's solved, it's, it's settled. Instead of, you know, provide me some input, gimme your feedback, gimme a perspective, how do you feel? So I've gotta do better on that front. And I think that's, that's one angle as well that I'm gonna, I'm really gonna push on the next two weeks.
Speaker 1 00:29:22 I just really wanna acknowledge your courage to do this out loud. You know, the, the, I think the new thing that's happening in the modern work world is that none of us have to work on our edges in, in the dark. We don't have, we don't have to just do it ourselves and don't tell anyone about it. So like, the, the cool thing is not only are you doing this podcast, which is gonna out you, but as you're doing this, you know, as you're doing this with your, with your team, you can just tell 'em what your intention is. Like maybe you use a Star Trek reference and you realize it's excluded. Like more than half the people who weren't even born when that episode happened,
Speaker 6 00:29:57 You know, likely. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:30:00 You know, and, and you could say something like, oh crap, I just did it again. I'm so sorry. I'm meaning to like, include all of us and I'm bringing in this reference that feels good to me, but doesn't do anything for the rest of you. Skip it, don't worry about it. Y'all keep going. Like, so that would be also something that would go to your goal of hearing all the voices.
Speaker 6 00:30:22 Yeah, I love that. Yeah. That's a great, that's a great idea. You know, one of the things I also noticed in this chapter too was just, you know, the how language creates, you know, logical constructs or abstract constructs inside our heads, right? Like, we right away, one thing that really stuck out was, you know, how we, you know, titles, we talked about titles earlier and how, how, you know, legacy or traditional organizations structure, structure, their, their titles and how it implies a certain hierarchy, but what, but sometimes the, the actual, you know, hierarchy that, or the titles or the language you used creates these abstract visuals in people's minds. It's, it's exact opposite of what we're trying, we're trying to accomplish, right? So they see the hierarchy, right? They see they're here and then I'm here and how do we talk between them? But that's just an abstract blocker. It's not a real blocker like, but we're creating those blockers because of the language we used. And so yeah, that was a big, a big epiphany. I was reading last night, I'm like, oh man, there's like six or seven epiphanies in one chapter. And I was like, that's love it. Professional development is so important, right? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:31:22 It's so cool. Yeah. And so I would encourage you to keep bringing that rigor, that it rigor that you were just talking about, abstraction, blocker, you know, all this that bring that to language. You can totally port over that skillset.
Speaker 6 00:31:36 Yeah. I love it. Awesome. Love it.
Speaker 0 00:31:39 Well, excellent. Eric, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your interest and your, your, your passion to try this experiment out. We wish you the very best and we're quite excited to meet you again in two weeks to see how it all went.
Speaker 6 00:31:51 Yeah, thanks for having me. Great conversation. Yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:31:55 Thank you. Real joy, I want to thank you for joining us and we encourage you to join us for the next episode when we hear back from Eric about his experiment and what we can all learn from his experiences with the chapter from the book Lead Together called Conscious Language. Know that words matter.
