Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 So, hey folks. In this podcast, we follow up with Eric Forsyth, the VP of IT operations at Interact, and his experiment of using the pattern of conscious language to improve his business results. You will hear how he shifted from taking space to holding space, and how he was surprised that that created orders of magnitude, more productivity, and even a few laughs, especially with auditors.
Speaker 1 00:00:24 And folks, we're gonna introduce you to Art Za Arabian, who's gonna bring the advice process to Earth Rangers, and it's an attempt to put into practice empowerment.
Speaker 2 00:00:34 Welcome to the Epic Agility Leadership podcast series where you embark on a journey of business agility and leadership evolution with your hosts Ron Maio and Lisa Atkins, who help you face today's leadership challenges head on.
Speaker 0 00:00:49 Hey everyone. You might remember that we have been talking with Eric Corsey, who is the EVP of IT ops at Interact Corporation in Canada. So Eric got attracted to the chapter in the lead together book called Conscious Language, know that words matter. So here we are now checking back in with him to see how his experiment went. So Eric, just remind us, remind everyone and remind yourself like what was the experiment you ran?
Speaker 3 00:01:19 Yeah, thanks for having me and, and having me back. You know, the experiment was, was an interesting one. When I was, when I was flipping through the book, I immediately recognized the conscious language chapter and it, it caught my attention. It, it really did resonate with me because I, you know, I often thought that I, I had a good grasp on, on what, what language I was using and the intent and, and ultimately the outcome of that language. So what we decided to do was do a bit of an introspective to take a look at, okay, are we using the right language? Is the language well understood across the team? And what we recognized really quickly was that it wasn't, and so with the use of a, you know, a handful of words and re-baselining with the team, you know, we were able to demonstrate quite effectively and measurably that we had some, you know, significant positive outcomes with that experiment.
Speaker 3 00:02:04 So it was ultimately about breaking down old barriers, breaking down old language, and redefining new language and the intent of that language, and then making sure that everybody understood what that language meant and what the intent was, and then implementing it daily, like, you know, practically daily operationally. And what we found, you know, again, really quickly was, was that the buy-in the ownership, the culture, and most importantly, just the positive energy in the meetings was quite different than it was in the past. And for me, as a leader, you know, you're always looking for ways to, to grow and develop. You're always looking for ways to ultimately understand where you're at from a self-awareness journey. And this was a big one for me. So thank you for having me, and thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 00:02:47 Yeah. Opportunity. Excellent. So if you could give us a sense, like, we're running an experiment here, so really we're not looking for success or fail, and we wanna get to the consequences of your experiment to see how it actually turned out. But if you could give us some high level pointers and thoughts about what were the expected results that came out of your experiment and what were the unexpected results?
Speaker 3 00:03:10 Yeah, that's a, that's a really good question. The intended outcomes were alignment on language alignment and understanding, being able to capture important topics and understandings across the group as it relates to day-to-day meetings. And most importantly, one of the expected outcomes was giving people a bit more opportunity, right? So instead of a lead from the front or even a lead from the side, you're taking a, a much more lead from behind in the sense of a followership, the unexpected outcomes is where things got pretty interesting. So when we took a look at how people related and owned and drove the outcomes of our meetings, like we were doing this work regardless, right? But what we found was that the work was, was, was different than the sense of how it was executed. So people were much more engaged, people were much more willing to participate.
Speaker 3 00:03:55 Right. Which I thought was an interesting one. And, and most important, we were, we were productive. Like I, I, I was, that's one that was a bit unintended was the productivity as it relates to harvesting meetings, right? Harvesting, you know, the salient important points and, and intent of a meeting and outcomes of a meeting paid massive dividends from a productivity perspective. And then, and then, and then the last unintended consequence, or is just the input was much more diverse. What, what I mean by that is, you know, when we gave space or held space for others, you know, to contribute, or we, we used language that was variable, like sensed instead of definitive language. Like, you know, must we, we found very quickly that there was a higher, you know, participation ratio. And, and then the natural implications of that is you're get, you're getting a lot more input from a lot of good people.
Speaker 3 00:04:44 And so we were better equipped to make decisions. We, we, we better understood the risks of some of the scenarios and decisions we had to make. But suddenly, you know, as you could hear a kind of right away, there was, every time someone used a word, there was a bit of a, not a giggle, but just a bit of energy behind it because now it was like, okay, I'm using something as part of this experiment. And they were, they were really interested to see what the outcome would be in the meeting. And, and then suddenly it became, it became a bit of a, you know, it just, it just ran through the group. So suddenly, you know, once, once one or two meetings were done, everyone started using the buzzwords and we had a really good time. So even, even while we're doing, we had specific business objectives in these meetings, we also had a lot of fun. So now the energy level went from monotonous, you know, and, and, and a bit, you know, exhausting to energetic and, and, and, and quite positive. So the natural consequence of that is productivity improves and people get a bit better work life balance, not not having the same repetitive meetings over and over again. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:05:46 I love the way you talked about how you started, and I think this would be useful for people to hear that you had this like step one, step two, step three, step one was you identifying, yeah, there was a self-identification of your lack of self-awareness about your language. You know, the couple decades before, as you said, step two was you started with vulnerability, and as soon as you did that, then the people were like, oh, what, what's going on here? Yeah. And step three was that you said your intention. So I would love it if you could give us like a sentence, a piece of like the, the, the steps you did to get started, because I think a lot of leaders will be nervous to get started. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:06:22 Yeah. So I mean, a lot of people, you know, that know me would, would say I'm probably not not the most vulnerable guy. You know, you tend, you tend to hold your cards close to your, your chest and, and play a good game of poker. That's the industry we're in. But suddenly, you know, when you, when you look at, so how do you launch an experiment like this? And I think that, you know, for me, the natural first step was acknowledgement, right? So here's where we're at, here's here's the language that I've used that, that I feel maybe, maybe been, would've been a bit exclusive. It wasn't necessarily, like, I remember after our first podcast, I sat there for probably days wondering, okay, how am I gonna start this off right? But I realized I didn't know how to start it off because I wasn't accepting the vulnerability part.
Speaker 3 00:06:59 So started the vulnerability re-baseline with the team, redefine the language in those top five words, and then hold 'em accountable to hold well hold them, hold each other accountable inside those meetings so that, so that we're leveraging them effectively and consistently, right? So instead of this just being another thing to do, it was something they wanted to do, and they wanted to see what the outcome was, right? So, you know, I, I just left, you know, a data center visit with a couple of folks, you know, at the engineering level. And I remember leaving, this is just yesterday, and we were high fiving, right? We were just, I was like, it was such a neat moment to see a bit of connectedness and connection with folks that I haven't necessarily been connected with. And I think that was a direct result of this experiment.
Speaker 1 00:07:41 One thing I found fantastic about what you did, you actually invited everybody to participate in, in the experiment that really helped people understand what you were doing, but gave them the safety and understanding because you actually divested some of your power and you actually showed vulnerability and you showed that you were, you didn't know everything that was right as a leader, that you were exploring and experimenting yourself. Oh, yeah. And talk, talk a little bit more about how that actually might have engaged your team.
Speaker 3 00:08:08 Yeah, that's a really good, that's a really good point. So, you know, well, the first thing is, you know, when we look at some of the, the concepts that we level set on, like, you know, like my favorite is hold the space, the creation of opportunity for others, right? Wasn't necessarily there before with the language I was using. We talk about hold the space, you know, I, I used to consider take the space, you know, take the space, and they just, you realize, okay, the, the natural consequence of taking the space is you're taking it from someone else. And so I'm a bit of an energetic guy, so I, I could see now that I could probably take a bit of other people's spaces if I'm not consciously aware. So when you switch that to hold the space, okay, well, I have the energy to, to create the space.
Speaker 3 00:08:47 Now, do I have, do I have the capability and intent to, to hold it for someone else to give them the opportunity? And so what we found is those that were typically quiet, that were, that were less engaged, were the ones that were taking the space that we were making, right? So they were, they, they, we were holding the space and they were leveraging it with an opportunity of being in front and leading and demonstrating their aptitude and their capabilities. And I think that's where, you know, the connectedness started. Like we, all of a sudden, you're de, you know, you're, you're developing relationships that were very different than before, instead of just being this leader where, you know, you know everything, you know, the top down approach where we want solutions and we want answers, and it needs to come from here to us. It kind of flipped the narrative.
Speaker 3 00:09:30 And that I'm looking for answers. Now I'm looking for feedback. How do we, how do we solve this problem in our ecosystem, right? You know, instead of just looking at the network part, or instead of looking at the, the audit part or the compliance part, we start using language like that. Then everyone starts to recognize that they have a part to play. So yeah, I found, I found the biggest, the biggest positive dividend of this exercise was, you know, bringing a voice to those that, that I, I guess I was, I was shutting down in the past. And that, that's something that, that I really appreciate from this experiment, because those are the moments where you pivot as a leader
Speaker 1 00:10:06 For leaders to start this stuff off and to show vulnerability. There's a lot of anxiety when things go wrong. Could you tell us a a about a moment in which a certain word that you used didn't go as you, as you intended, and, and how you might've recovered, or how did that actually behave work with you and your relationship with your team? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:10:27 That's a good point. So, I mean, I think I, I've got a whole, a whole slew of words from, from my legacy language that, that I could leverage. But, you know, yeah, level setting was, was the important one. But we, there was a, there was a, you know, a component to, you know, like when we talk about sensed, right? And we talk about that as a, as one of the tealy buzzwords. It wasn't obviously apparent to everybody what, what I meant by that. 'cause when you take a look at my historical behavior, I wouldn't, I wouldn't often asked how you feel about a whole lot of stuff. So, you know, and so what I found was that I had to reinforce what I meant by that, right? Meaning I'm not looking for absolutes anymore. People were still thick and absolutes. Oh, he, he wants me to tell me exactly how I feel.
Speaker 3 00:11:07 No, no, I want you to tell me how you feel, right? Not exactly how you feel or, or give me any type of definitive language on, on it. There's not a real right or wrong answer to that, to that question. Whereas, you know, before when I asked, I want definitive answers. I want a hundred percent probability. There's only one answer to that question. And so what I ended up doing is I limited the possible answers or the possible permutations of answers unknowingly, which is a bit embarrassing now in retrospect. But you know, now when you say, well, how do you feel? Like, what, what do you think your thoughts are? Like, what's your probability? What do you feel the probability of success is? Or what's your confidence level? And suddenly you're giving a whole range of possible answers instead of limiting their answers or potential pool of answers to like one or two, right?
Speaker 3 00:11:52 And so what you end up having is a much more diverse thought process and thought leadership inside your group doesn't just come from me anymore, right? It can't just be me being, being the thought leader. Of course, now recognizing maybe I necessarily wasn't, but what, what we found was that that thought leadership just propagated through the team, right? Those that are quiet had so much to contribute that they weren't contributing before. And because we were able to give them that space and give them language, which is, I don't want absolutes anymore. I want ranges of thought. Suddenly, like the contributions were, were significant. Like, I, I don't use the term orders of magnitude very often because it's a bit of an exaggeration in a lot of scenarios, but there was orders of magnitude more input than before. And, and then the outcomes, you know, are better.
Speaker 3 00:12:38 And what I mean by that is, you know, people go into meetings more confident, they go into an audit session, more confident when people want, you know, when you, when you use old language, like, like absolutes, they go in worried. They feel like they're always gonna get something wrong when a question's asked, right? Because there's only one one right answer right now. There was no just one right answer. It was, you know, talk about how you feel in those audit sessions. Be transparent, you know, tell them where we're at today and, and ultimately where we feel we need to grow. And when we, when we, when we, when we did that, the audit sessions were way better. Even the auditors smiling, you know, instead of this rigid, you know, everyone really worried about making a mistake. Even the auditor was enjoying the, the fluid conversations that we were having. So I think that, you know, we could probably write a book on this, the chapter, least a chapter, at least a chapter.
Speaker 0 00:13:29 So Eric, you are the one hacking the path here, doing it yourself. If you were to advise leaders in your position of some pro tips or some ways to start with this, what's your, what's your pro tip advice? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:13:42 Expect positive outcomes. But, but I, I think that ultimately first you, you know, you have to have a level of self-awareness and understanding that you want, you want to grow and develop as a leader, right? So if you don't start there, then it's gonna be a bit difficult to go to the real first step, which is that vulnerability piece and re baselining with your team. I think, I think that, you know, that if I'm gonna give one piece of advice, start there, start with your team, kind of demonstrate that you, you've had a bit of a lack of self-awareness, right? So they, because they know, they know, you know, so, so, so bring that forward, demonstrate that you know now that, that maybe you aren't using the most inclusive language and re baseline. And then start, start right away with defining what that language means and what those buzzwords mean, and making sure that you're aligned on that front. And when you do that, I found that vulnerability step was, was really key to buy-in, like suddenly, you know, you had, you had attentive years, you had people willing, willing to participate. And I think that was probably the most important piece.
Speaker 0 00:14:38 Hey Eric, I really just wanna appreciate the steps you've laid out and how you did this, because you're making a path for other leaders to follow you. And the fact that it starts with vulnerability and you're willing not only to do that with your team, but to come on this podcast and be vulnerable is like the most important leadership skill I think that anyone needs these days. 'cause we're always all learning and we're always all getting better. So I just really wanna thank you for your time, your attention for doing the experiment and telling us how it went. I mean, I just, I think it's gonna be great for everyone to listen to this and learn from your experience. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:15:12 Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 0 00:15:15 All right, everyone, you know what, it's time for the takeaway. Ron, what's your main takeaway?
Speaker 1 00:15:21 Well, one of the things that I felt was very powerful from Eric's experience with his team was the fact that he actually changed the culture of his team simply by being vulnerable to his team, confessing what he was trying to do and how he was doing it, making it a conscious effort that he was gonna use as words, but more importantly, showing his team deliberately what he was doing and shaping that cultural environment actually allowed the practice of using the words to be very effective. Because when he did that, he really disarmed his people. He allowed them to become a little bit more comfortable in the experimentation and the use of their words. And of course, in the end, he reflected the fact that it did include a lot of inclusiveness and support for each other, and people did engage in, in a more collaborative manner. So what did you find, Lisa? Well,
Speaker 0 00:16:11 Mine is similar around the topic of vulnerability. It's really just the pro tip that Eric taught us, which is take the plunge and tell people what you're up to. In other words, don't run your experiment in a dark back room, and no one knows what's going on. So I think that that is the, the thing to take away from here is just take the plunge, tell people what you're doing and why you're doing it.
Speaker 1 00:16:33 So Lisa, I'm very excited that we're now on to have a conversation with Arts Arabian, and he's very interested in applying the advice process into his workplace. Now, this is a topic that was brought up by Dennis Bke in his book, the Decision Maker. And it's also discussed as one of the approaches to decision making in the book lead together in chapter 12. And the decision process is actually rather simple and at the same time incredibly powerful. And it really is, is very simple, and it, it goes like this. So the advice process itself really allows any employee in the organization to make a decision. However, the key aspect is that this person making the decision must seek the advice from all the effective parties and people with expertise on the matter. Now, the other part two is that it encourages employees to seek diverse opinions and advice. So they're not there just to find facts that justifies their views or opinions, but intent. It's the flip side. They're actually intending to try to find contrasting perspectives, contrasting facts to ensure that their decisions are well-informed and considered on multiple perspectives. Now, the third part of this advice process is that the individuals who initiate the decision take full responsibility for it. And this fosters a sense of ownership and a sense of accountability across all the employees.
Speaker 0 00:18:05 And what I love about this, Ron, is that it creates the culture that we have been talking about in this podcast, the culture that leaders create by going first. So specifically when leaders say to other people in their organization, okay, you are empowered to make these decisions. What it does when they use the advice process is that it increases transparency and trust because the decision making process is out there for everyone to see. And it also increases empowerment and engagement. And here's where I wanna make a, a clean distinction. You know, in the old days and maybe in the existing days for a lot of people, we carry a PowerPoint deck around and we seek buy-in. Now we have the idea that we wanna do, we're basically trying to, to block all objections to the idea that we wanna put forward. This is, as you said before, bringing in multiple perspectives. It is the opposite of that. So this is not socializing for buy-in this is literally how do we make the decision better together? So it increase, increases empowerment and engagement for that very reason. Now, of course, when we get different perspectives, we're gonna increase the innovation and the agility for whatever decision we're up to. And overall, we're creating that cultural shift that allows for better working in this complex and confounding modern world of work, we're all in together.
Speaker 1 00:19:27 What's also powerful about that too, Lisa, is that it allows leaders to break free from being the decision bottleneck. And that in itself adds agility, power, and a bit of freedom to the leader as well.
Speaker 0 00:19:39 So let's find out how it worked for this particular organizational leader.
Speaker 1 00:19:44 Alright, well thank you Artan for joining our podcast. We're very excited to have you on and we're very excited that you want to run an experiment on something that's dear to us, which is the advice process for decisioning. So welcome. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 00:20:00 Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 00:20:02 Yeah, you're very welcome. Alright, so, so we get to know you a little bit, if you could do us a favor and get us to know you a little bit by telling us who you are and what you do.
Speaker 4 00:20:14 Sure. So I, I recently joined a nonprofit organization called Earth Rangers. I joined just last October, and I, I basically joined as the director for projects, technology and digital. And really my responsibility for the organization is to lead the app development team that we work with externally for our mobile app that we have for, for our, for the, the kids that engage with us, as well as a lot of our environmental programs that we have as well, that we work with various sponsors and, and also Environment Canada. And so I, I manage a team of those program managers and project managers as well as that external development team for the mobile app
Speaker 0 00:21:10 Side. You know, since a lot of people might not know what Earth Rangers is, can you give us the 32nd nutshell version of what Earth Rangers is up to
Speaker 4 00:21:18 Earth Rangers is quite focused on the conservation and preservation of wildlife and the environment and really empowering young children, which we target around seven to 13 ish age, to really empower them to help make that change and wanna make that change. And really giving 'em, you know, the tools as much as we can and also allow them to have fun doing it.
Speaker 0 00:21:46 God, that feels good. Mm, feels good. I'm so glad you're doing that. And
Speaker 5 00:21:49 I have to say thank you for what you do.
Speaker 4 00:21:51 That's awesome. But yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a really fun environment, you know, good pace and you know, really good team. So it, it does make the job a lot more fun.
Speaker 0 00:22:02 Awesome. So as you, as you just sort of dove into the chapter on decision making and specifically the piece about advice process. So what resonated for you as you were reading that, and of course probably relating it to your real life, what stuck out?
Speaker 4 00:22:19 Well, what really stuck out was, you know, my current team and the organization as a whole as well, but specifically my team, they are a, a little bit more younger team, and maybe not, like I said, it's not, they're not as experienced as, you know, somewhat more seasoned in that, in that particular role. But they are very, very smart individuals. But what I've found working there for a short time I've been there, is that they do have a apprehension in wanting to make decisions or take lead, take lead on, you know, responsibility of a decision. And so a lot of times they shy away from that and they seek, you know, someone above them or someone else besides them, which would be myself or someone else that's maybe in a more senior role to really make that decision for them. And one of the things that resonated well from reading the decision making part was that, you know, I wanted to be able to get to a point eventually to really be able to empower the team to be able to make these decisions without any fear, fear, you know, without any apprehension or any hesitation, and be able to be confident in that decision regardless of the outcome.
Speaker 0 00:23:44 Yeah. Regardless of the outcome. I think that's a really important point because if people are afraid that they make a decision and it's slightly different than what the boss would've done and the boss is gonna come down on them, then that, you know, I mean that it creates a, a feedback loop that keeps them small and not making decisions.
Speaker 1 00:24:00 And one, one thing I discovered too about those that really haven't taken a lot of leadership roles before, they don't necessarily realize through experience, the, the, the, the risk that leaders do take. What's interesting that they don't realize is that the leaders that they look up to don't have somebody that they look up to. They're taking that risk just the same. And really, it's nice to have those leaders to have those experiences and realize that that's really what leadership is all about. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:24:28 So beautiful. I love what you're trying to do, you know, basically get, get decision making down to the level of the, of where people have the most information.
Speaker 4 00:24:36 Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, the way I look at it, and I, I think I've even had some, you know, very high level conversations with the team. You know, I've mentioned to them that, you know, my goal is to make them leaders. And really at the end of the day, I mean, the leader only shines because of their team. So, you know, making them leaders makes me a better leader, makes everyone above me a better leader, makes the organization better. So it just, I think it's the best approach.
Speaker 1 00:25:02 Love it. Well, and, and, and the best leaders that we have among us are the ones that create leaders around them. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:25:07 Leaders, great leaders.
Speaker 1 00:25:08 So congratulations. That's great Leaders.
Speaker 0 00:25:09 Great leaders. That's it. It's like a, it's a mantra. That's
Speaker 4 00:25:12 Right.
Speaker 1 00:25:13 Well, thank you. So give us an idea of what that experiment of yours is gonna look like. So how are you gonna bring the advice process into your workplace?
Speaker 4 00:25:22 Yeah, so my initial thought on the approach was to maybe try and isolate a couple of the members of my team that I think would be good candidates to maybe sit down and have this approach with them, really give them a couple of key, you know, decisions that I would want them to go forward with and test and come back and, and kind of go from there. Obviously would be looking to see what's the best way to do that. But that was my initial thought was just to kind of spend some time with the, a couple of the members and then obviously, you know, expand that out to the rest of the team to, to really get the whole team on it.
Speaker 1 00:26:07 Thank you. And so the interesting twist here is your hypothesis. So what do you anticipate will be the results or the consequence of your experiment in two weeks?
Speaker 4 00:26:20 Well, I hope that with this experiment, you know, it will at least instill a little bit of confidence at the very minimum in the team to be able to make some of the, you know, more, at the very minimum, the more trivial decisions without any apprehension or fear, fear. Because at the moment, like I mentioned, the challenge is that almost every single minute decision that really is trivial is even not taken. So, you know, even getting to that step, I think is a really good start. And then to build from there with their confidence as we go forward on, you know, more important decisions as it grows.
Speaker 0 00:27:05 Yeah. And as you support them in doing that, of course the Lead Together book has a little snippet in it about the advice process, but there's also a, a quite small book called the Decision Maker by Dennis Bocky, that that is about the advice process itself. So, you know, some people want to read like, how does this actually work? How do other people do it? And so if you have, if you encounter that, you can give them that idea. But I'll tell you one thing that we invented at Agile Coaching Institute that I was the co-founder of and worked in for a long time, is this idea of a reversible decision. It's, it's an advice process, but it's pretty streamlined. So basically because you, what made me think about it, as you were just saying, they're not even making the minute decisions, right? So basically if I pretty much know what I think we should do, I will write it in an email or on Slack or whatever, but, but the headline or the subject line will be reversible decision by Wednesday at noon, which means by Wednesday at noon.
Speaker 0 00:28:06 If I don't hear from the people I've pinged about this, I'm gonna go ahead. But I have pinged you because I really wanna hear, you know, any input you have. I mean, maybe you know, something, I don't know, and this is not a good idea, you know, so this allows people to have a, have a way to, to have like sort of a feeling of forward momentum, you know, for, especially for the ones that are more minute when people actually do know what to do, but are sort of just afraid to take the plunge. Yep. That worked really well for us. I mean, it, it really created, we had gotten into that, in that organization. We had gotten into sort of this log jam of like, all the founders had to agree. No, not necessarily, not necessarily, you know, but, and what was amazing was that nine times outta 10 we found out that we were aligned, but just like waiting to have the conversation to make the decision was slowing us down so much. So people just being able to take the initiative and say, Hey, here's what I'm gonna do by, you know, by Wednesday noon, you can reverse it if it's a bad idea. Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:29:09 I
Speaker 1 00:29:09 Agree. So one other question I have for you too are, are, are is, do you think that there's anything else that you need to do in concert of introducing the advice process into your work? Something like, for example, psychological safety or trust,
Speaker 0 00:29:25 Transparency, comfort
Speaker 1 00:29:26 Of some kind, transparency.
Speaker 4 00:29:31 Definitely. I think at, at the minimum the safety is, is something I'd have to introduce because again, I think, I think the fear component is, is real in the team, and I believe that that's probably one common point of why they don't want to make the decisions. So I would want to provide that, you know, that safety or the safe environment or you know, just to let them know that whatever decision they're making and yeah, whatever, regardless of the outcome, the support is there from my end, my end. And that really, because the experiment is also a little bit isolated and small and, you know, tailored to really, at least at the beginning to a couple of individuals. I mean, the impacts are gonna be relatively small anyway. They don't need to know that. But from my end, you know, it would be a a, a good way to do the experiment without any worry on either side. Now obviously that will change as the experiment grows, but I think that was my thought initially.
Speaker 0 00:30:31 Yeah. I like how you're attending to safety for them, but also for you, because you, this is part of one of the reasons why leaders are nervous about moving into more of these consent based decision making methods. Like the advice process is like the question of, oh my God, what if they make a decision that that is bad or that's harmful? Yeah. Like, and I'm responsible or accountable is the leader for what this group of people do. So it's, I think it's a novel idea, a good idea to start with something, you know, you know, fairly low risk even so, or one of the things that I would suggest you think about is what if what they end up doing is something that's not harmful or bad or has a huge downside, but it's just not the way you would've wanted it to be done. Like, how much are you willing to let that go so that they can be safe to do something even though it's not your, your preference?
Speaker 4 00:31:29 I first thought I would say all of it. I really have no worry about it at all. Not sure if that would apply to all, all the team, if and, and all the situations, but I think, you know, working with a couple individuals and within the scope of what we're doing, the experimenting, I think it's safe enough. I don't have a worry about it really. And it wouldn't be a first time either. There's been, even up till now for the short time I've been there, some of these decisions were made by some of the more experienced team members and they really weren't at all the way I would've done it. But again, I've never, I've never let them feel that they made the wrong decision, supported the decision all the way, and either way, I mean, there's always more than one way to do something anyway, so
Speaker 0 00:32:16 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love it. So that's the, that's the bedrock for you, you say there's always more than one way to do something that, that allows you to stay curious and open to their different way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:32:25 Yeah. So I'm curious to see what your experiment feels like and actually turns out to be, of course, this is an experiment, so we're not looking for did it work or not, we're looking for what happened that was unexpected or what happened that was expected. And most importantly, were just experienced, so we're interested in the experience of learning. So yeah, actually, so yeah.
Speaker 4 00:32:46 Yeah, having this discussion also has gotten me quite a bit excited about it. I'm actually got kind of the two individuals picked out right now as we were discussing, so I think it'll be interesting to, to try. Awesome.
Speaker 1 00:32:55 Well, in two weeks. So we're gonna follow up with you and I'm just curious to see if those are okay enough that if you could somehow explore what their experience was Yeah. And if they feel comfortable that you convey that on their behalf, because I know this is gonna be new to you and this experiment for you. And as much as I think this is pretty much aligned with your leadership style, so I don't think it'll be uncomfortable for you, it'll still be a new experience for you, but their experience will also will be very key. Yeah, absolutely. We're very curious about as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 0 00:33:28 I'm, I'm, I'm just sort of imagining your team being fully empowered to make decisions all the time, consulting with each other moving forward, like no residue, absolute four momentum. Ugh. It would be great.
Speaker 4 00:33:42 Yeah. You know what, why I found this very important for myself is also my team departmentally is classified as a programs team within the organization. And obviously a lot of the, a lot of the initiatives we work on, a lot of the projects we work on are all different types of projects slash programs, all flows through my team members. So I think it's important to be able to get to this stage because really they have a lot of decisions to make on a lot of these programs. They're single point of contact, so really wanna be able to get to that.
Speaker 0 00:34:12 Beautiful.
Speaker 1 00:34:13 Well, thank you so much Ton. Really appreciate it and we're looking forward to following up with you now in two weeks to see how it went.
Speaker 4 00:34:21 Sounds good, guys. All right. We'll in touch soon. Thank you very much. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:34:25 Thank you. Take care. Take care. I want to thank you for joining us and we encourage you to join us for the next episode when we hear back from Arts Arabian about his experiment and what we can all learn from his experiences with chapter 12 from the book lead together called Decision Making as he applies the advice process first coined by Dennis Bakke.
